This week we have a rock star guest, Dan Ciporin. Who better than the former CEO of Shopping.com to talk about holiday shopping trends, group buying, and how e-commerce companies can leverage social media?
Dan Ciporin is a partner at global venture capital firm Canaan Partners, whose early investments included match.com and doubleclick. A decade ago, Dan was CEO of Shopping.com where he oversaw growth from zero to over $100 million in revenues in just five years, culminating in the company’s IPO in October 2004 and later acquisition by eBay in 2005.
He was also a Senior VP of MasterCard International, where he was responsible for the marketing and product management of all online global debit products. Now he’s investing in social commerce companies like OpenSky and new e-commerce innovators like Gemvara.
– 2010 holiday trends
The recession… Dan thinks people are ready to buy again (but in a 2010 way, not a 2007 way)
Jim thinks the iPad and Kindle will be far and away the most popular gifts this season… Dan agrees, but adds two more hot tech items
– The origin around Black Friday and Cyber Monday, and whether the trend still holds
– Group buying: Trend or here to stay?
We talk about the incredibly successful Gap Groupon case study. Why it was important to the Gap brand overall in the big picture, and what the two things a retailer is looking for when trying to do a promotion such as this (and Jim suggests a third).
– How do e-commerce companies leverage social media?
– Mass customization, the ability to mass produce something that is very unique to each customer
– What is the best way for companies to reach customers?
– What are the best ways for consumers to get deals?
– What trend is happening now, but will be even bigger next year.
Download the podcast from iTunes, or play the full interview it below:
Below is a full transcript of our conversation:
Jim Hopkinson: Hey everybody, this is Jim, welcome to the podcast. I’ve got a great guest today, Dan Ciporin, who is a partner at a global venture capital firm, Canaan Partners. In their earlier investments you might know them from Match.com and DoubleClick.
A quick background on Dan – he’s was the CEO and the Chairman of Shopping.com; he was the Senior VP at MasterCard; he sits on the Board of PRIMEDIA, which is one of the world’s leading target media companies; and, formerly on the Board of Vistaprint who makes those great business cards. And now he’s investing in social commerce companies like OpenSky and new e-commerce innovators like Gemvara; and we’re going to talk about the holiday shopping season.
So, welcome Dan.
Dan Ciporin: Thank you very much, Jim. Good to be here.
JH: So, we’re coming up on the shopping season – everyone’s favorite time of year. It seems to get earlier every year, right? Is that just us; that they’re putting up lights in November, or…
DC: It absolutely does. Pretty soon I’m gonna expect to see right after Labor Day, lights are going to be up right on the beaches. But it does seem to come every year much earlier.
JH: So, I gave a quick background, but tell us kind of, how did you get here; how did you move from, what you did growing up and then into, all the way up to CEO, and now working in VC.
DC: Sure. Well, I jumped from the corporate world where I was, as you mentioned, Senior Vice President of MasterCard, responsible for global debit, into the internet world and that was the internet world of 1998. And I actually joined up with a company that had only eight people and no revenues in January 1999 as the CEO and Chairman; and that company was called DealTime. And we took that company pretty much through almost every cycle you could think of; it was really a wild ride. I started in ’99, we grew the company all the way through the boom; filed our first IPO in March of 2000 which was actually the literal height of the boom.
JH: It must have been a party for that, right? [LAUGHTER]
DC: [LAUGHTER] It was a bigger party for the second one. But, we went through the bust and then bought a company called Epinions out in California, moved the company out to California, we kept growing through that whole period, took the company public in ’04, and then we sold to EBay in 2005. So, it was a great six and a half years and a wild ride with just about every cycle you could imagine for a company, a growth company.
JH: Yes. It says you took Shopping.com from $0 revenue to over $100 million in just five years. What was that ride like, how do you do that? [LAUGHTER]
DC: It was an incredible ride. I have to say in some respects that the five years — it was a total of six and a half years I was with the company — in some ways it felt like dog years in the sense that they were very long and tough, but incredibly exciting and incredibly adrenaline-filled years. And, that’s one of the reasons I am now in the venture capital world. I love the fact that I have seen the movie, and while everybody’s movie is different, there are certain things that are the same in terms of patterns, in particular.
And to the extent that I can help entrepreneurs recognize those patterns, recognize that, you know, ‘Hey, the script that you are just about to go on, that’s probably not the right script you want to go on. I’ve seen that and the ending is a bad ending; you may want to try a different script.’ That whole process of really helping to the extent possible, helping entrepreneurs understand what works, what doesn’t, in both the general and specific sense is just a wonderful occupation and something that I really enjoy.
JH: And, how does that break down kind of on a daily basis, are you just doing research, are you visiting companies, and just kind of always looking for the next trend, right?
DC: Absolutely. There’s a very significant amount of time you spend, as you say, talking to people that are really at the forefront of what’s happening in the world of e-commerce. For example, for advertising, technology or financial services which are sort of the three areas that I focus on, specifically. As well as frankly dealing with a lot of the issues that arise as part of the companies that I’m on the boards of, and that Canaan invests in.
So, you end up spending about roughly half and half – half on companies you’re currently with, and half on really just trying to make sure that you’re keeping track of and following what’s happening in the areas that you’re focused on. Again for me, e-commerce, advertising technology, financial services, and making sure you’re on top of those trends, and then obviously looking at lots and lots of new companies that are involved in those companies, as well.
JH: And is the key, I’ve heard, it all comes down to the management team. Is that correct? Is that one of the strongest things you look at, or what can you say is kind of the linchpin that makes an entrepreneur or company successful?
DC: No, it’s really true. It is a truism and it is very true that the management team is first, foremost, it’s sort of the real estate notion – location, location, location; and I think management team, management team, management team is a similar mantra, if you will. You’d always rather have a bad business concept and a great management team and the other way around. Having said that [LAUGHTER] we do like to find both great management teams and great business concepts and business models; and that combination of things is really when you feel like you’ve hit the gold mine, so to speak.
JH: So, I wrote a blogpost recently based on the Facebook movie (The Social Network Movie Review – What’s more important, the product or the money?) saying how Zuckerberg was saying, ‘It’s all about the product.’ You’ve got to get the products first, you go get the users, and then you worry about the revenues. And his partner, Saverin, was out there looking for the deals.
So, when you look at Facebook and Twitter and all these other companies that are like, ‘Build the product first, worry about revenues later.’ Is that the case, you want that product to be perfect, or is it the other way around? Now it’s like, ‘No, we’re through the recession, it’s all about revenues first, what’s the business model first?’ You’re the perfect person to answer that.
DC: You know he’s right. Ultimately, it is about the product. But, just to be clear, it’s not about a great product that you like, it’s about a great product that a lot of people like, that everybody likes, that people adopt, and in some cases really can’t live without. So, the definition of a great product is not just your definition, but the definition is does it resonate with a broad mass of people, does it resonate with the market? Because if you can get a product, if you can build a product, if you can develop a product that really does resonate at a very broad level with a very large market, then you will find a business model – no question about it.
Now, having said that, I think we always look at companies in the context of, ‘Can you eventually build a business model?’ Sometimes you’re looking at building one sooner, sometimes later, but you certainly always have to go into it with the thought that at some point in time you do have to create a viable business model. If you build an enormous massive audience, then I think that that business model is absolutely inevitable, and I think Twitter is a classic example where, as you know, and certainly has been in the press lately, they have not necessarily monetized to date, haven’t, but with the kind of audience they have, with the kind of really powerful product they have, there’s no question that that will happen.
JH: Alright. So, looking at the holiday season, people shopping online, obviously, every single year has changed, more and more people go online. Is that a trend; are there any numbers about what percentage of people now shop online versus are going to the mall? Because I say going to the mall is kind of ridiculous, is waiting on line, those people. I don’t understand, what are the trends saying? [LAUGHTER]
DC: [LAUGHTER] I couldn’t agree more with you. It does seem, I certainly hate it, personally, but I think you can see that in the numbers as well. When I look back on 2000, which was sort of the top of or near the even end of the web 1.0 era, if you will, that year I believe the e-commerce, the total percentage of goods and services bought online was somewhere in the neighborhood of 1%. So, it was very small, relatively speaking.
And now it’s still very small, but it’s closing in on 10%. So, a massive jump in terms of sort of overall numbers of people buying online, but still lots and lots of headroom. And you see different kinds of headroom and different kinds of categories, so the classic example electronics, computers, sort of the real early adopters of online commerce.
I remember, again, at Shopping.com, which is where we ultimately named ourselves and became the company that I was CEO of and that we sold. When I was there in 2000, I believe, if I’m not mistaken, electronics and computers were somewhere in the neighborhood of 20% of all those in that category, of all those goods were sold were sold online. And I think it’s now over 50%.
DC: Apparel, I remember we used to talk about “Who would ever buy apparel online?” That was going to be a really tough category, now there’s been tremendous, tremendous growth in apparel being bought online.
JH: So, you’re saying that 90% of people are still going to the mall. But the sheer number of that 10% is just growing amazingly, and certain categories do far better than others?
DC: Absolutely, absolutely. And it’s going to continue to grow; there’s no question whatsoever in my mind. And that number, by the way, represents all goods and services; so, including services that are inherently not necessarily retail mall products, but other things. So, malls are for entertainment, not necessarily shopping, although they can be one in the same.
JH: I look back last year and I did a Black Friday article (Black Friday is Stupid and 5 other helpful shopping rants) and posted it at the Hopkinsonreport.com, [LAUGHTER] and just making fun of the people that got up at 5:00 a.m. Alright, OK, let’s look at it logically, cause I like to dig down deep. And they were getting a $248 Emerson TV. And, I’m like, ‘Well let’s see if it was a good TV.’ No one talks about Emerson, they think about Samsung and Toshiba. And Consumer Reports didn’t even test it! Out of 23 different models tested, they weren’t even tested!
And then I said, ‘OK, they had a Sony Bravia, let’s look at the Sony.’ It was $378 and when I looked online it was $398 with $.97 shipping! [LAUGHTER] So, why would you get up a 5:00 a.m. to do that, right?
DC: It’s really about entertainment; I think that’s the only reason. I think even today it’s not so much that you can buy anything online that you could buy offline. I think it’s actually you can buy many more things online that you can offline. And, I think the classic example of that is a company that I sit on the Board of called Gemvara, which sells customized jewelry, and they sell customized jewelry.
If you go into your local independent jewelry, a retailer, you’ll find a nice selection, but a relatively limited selection of inventory, whereas you go to Gemvara, you can custom design anything you want. So, you have a massive array of choice that you simply don’t have offline, you now have online. I think that kind of pattern is really just going to continue to increase.
JH: And do they do like engagement rings and everything, too? Because that’s somewhat standard, right? You can say, ‘Do you want platinum or do you want gold?’ You know your ring size number and what is the Six C’s, and weights and the price; and I guess with FedEx shipping, and secure it, it’s probably a pretty big, what do they call it, insurance on that when you ship it, right? How do they handle like shipping for something that expensive?
DC: Exactly, well, you know it’s interesting. First of all, Gemvara is part of what I would call a general trend in e-commerce – a very exciting trend I think. And you mentioned Vistaprint earlier. Vistaprint was one of the really first players in the space of what I call mass customization. So, that is really being able to mass produce, in effect, something that is very specifically meant for you and you alone.
So, Vistaprint does it with printed products, so you get your exact business cards or your stationary – what have you. Gemvara does that with jewelry. So, you can actually mass customize; you can customize gemstones, by the way, not just diamonds, lots of different gemstones, lots of different metals, shapes, designs, almost anything you want; you can custom design it – just for you. And it can be mass produced in the quantity of one.
DC: And then you can get it sent and delivered to you, and it’s unique to you in sort of a mass customized sense. So, that kind of trend you see that for example in other online stores, Threadless; a classic example, Zazzle. There are other kinds of mass customization plays, but I think that’s a very interesting trend we’re going to see spread in more and more different categories.
JH: It makes sense to me, cause I know a friend was looking for an engagement ring, but a sapphire. And so, that’s something you go to a jewelry store, there’s hundreds of diamond rings, but maybe such a smaller selection of sapphires, and they may not be on the right band, and so there, you’re saying, he could say, ‘I want this size, this price, etc.’
DC: Exactly right. You give it. You want it for you and you alone.
DC: And you want to be able to find that again, in a way that’s very easy to do and not have to search again on a constant basis.
JH: And is the pricing competitive?
DC: Absolutely competitive.
JH: It’s gotta be, right?
DC: In fact, it’s better than I think you’d find in most independent jewelry retailers.
JH: Because I went through the â€˜90s and the .com boom as well. And I was doing something and saying like, ‘People forget, people are afraid to put their credit card number online, not that long ago.’ And the thought of buying a diamond ring online was just, ‘Are you kidding me?’, or let alone I bought my 46′ TV online. And it’s just making that leap and maybe it is early adopters that are more comfortable with it, but it’s just going to keep growing.
DC: Exactly. And you think about giving your credit card online, and I think a lot of people don’t necessarily, I didn’t necessarily realize, it’s the same thing as giving your card to a waiter in a restaurant.
JH: Right, right.
DC: The security on an online basis is a lot better than in many cases giving a card to someone at a restaurant; so I think that’s now fairly accepted.
JH: So what are the 2010 holiday shopping trends? And then our sales guy was saying, ‘We read some studies that say, â€˜Oh, the economy’s coming back and people are opening their wallets and some saying, no, they’re still being conservative.” What’s the state of the economy and what trends do you see for online shopping?
DC: Well, I think we obviously went through a rough period, to say the least. And I think that we’re still, in many respects in a rough period, certainly a lot of folks out there in a rough period, but, I will say that a lot of people are now at a point where they see some evidence that things are coming back. And coming back you can see in lots of different arenas, job listings and classifieds, for example, Monster.com.
Those are starting to trend upwards now, and we’re starting to see some signs of economic growth, clearly. And I think people have been through such a rough period that they’re ready to buy again. Maybe not quite in the same carefree way that they were in 2006-2007, but certainly you see people; all the trends are that we’re going to have a much better holiday season this year, we had last year, and certainly in L.A.
JH: Yeah. My gut feeling says that the iPad and the Kindle are going to be the top two gifts this year and it’s not even going to be close, what do you think?
DC: I think you’re probably right. I think both those products are going to sell extraordinarily well. I also think though that Xbox Kinect is going to do quite well. And I think, believe it or not, the newly relaunched Apple TV seems to be getting some real traction from what I understand. So, I think those are four products that, I believe you’re absolutely right, are going to be big sellers going forward in the holiday season.
JH: And now, so to kind of combat Black Friday that the retailers were doing – there’s Black Friday, now there’s Cyber Monday, and the online retailers are getting around this, what are the stats there? Is it good for consumers to be shopping, are there real deals on there or is that kind of hype that these companies are doing and jumping on?
DC: Well, I think it’s clearly promotional in nature. [LAUGHTER] You know the original origins of Cyber Monday were people coming to work and getting on their fast internet connections and after a long Thanksgiving’s weekend; and that was the big spike that we always traditionally saw. And, we saw it all at Shopping.com, as well. There was question that there was a very noticeable marked spike in orders.
Having said that, the fast internet sort of bifurcation of work in home is largely gone; and so I think what you’re left with now is the fact that people tend to spend their Thanksgiving weekend with family and not so much online. And then of course, when they go back, and to the extent that they’re with family, they’re going to go potentially shopping at that mall that you described. [LAUGHTER]
But, when they get back to work on Monday they do tend to shop and I do think you see that spike which still exists. You see promotional activity around it. But I really think if you look at the numbers, the first week of December is a much bigger week than the last week of November, and I think you go all the way into now as late as the 20th of December.
JH: Yeah. With all the overnight shipping, they’ve kind of got that down, it seems. Like they pretty clearly say, ‘If you want it by this day, you have to order by here,’ and they kind of got their act together now.
DC: We used to see the big drop-off around the 12th, 13th, 14th of December and I think it now goes out an extra week, absolutely.
JH: And one of the big trends we’re seeing now is kind of this group buying, so there’s like the Daily Deal and there’s Groupon, and there’s Gilt Group – talk to me about that. Is this kind of a trend or is this here to stay?
DC: No, I really think it’s very much here to stay. I would say, broadly speaking, when you look at e-commerce innovation – as far as innovation is concerned, a lot of the initial innovation, if you will, online, has happened around advertising; and that’s now starting to shift towards e-commerce. And some of the kinds of innovation you see are things like group-buying, things like Flash Sales, things like mass customization and you see a lot of different trends emerging. I would say the big umbrella over all those trends is probably the whole arena of social media.
And how does e-commerce leverage social media? I think that’s still to be determined. I think that we’re still in the very early stages of that, but I think that’s something that you’re going to see a lot of innovation around. As far as group-buying is concerned, if you look at the enormous success of Groupon; in many respects that is really, if you think about it, is much more of a localized promotional buying – almost hyper local where the specific Groupons are centered around local spas, local restaurants, things of that sort. Having said that, you had one of the most successful promotions in sort of facilitative history, if you will, with Groupons recent Gap promotion where enormous number ofâ€¦
JL: Like multi-million, right?
DC: I think it was 11 million if I’m not mistaken, I could be mistaken.
JH: Were they able to measure how much additional merchandise was purchased by the people that came into the store? Because they lost some money, right? Like you had to pay $25 for $50 worth of gear.
DC: Exactly. That’s right.
JH: But what was the average purchase?
DC: What every retailer hopes for on something like that, and one of the reasons, you certainly will engage in a Groupon-like deal and there’s obviously a number of other companies out there living social and others that engage in the same kind of promotional offers.
What every retailer hopes for, clearly, are two things:
1) Is to take up excess capacity, so to be able to get an amount of money in and know that you’re going to use that capacity up. If you have a half empty restaurant, for example, and you want to get additional people in the seats.
2) The second way that retailers look at is the way to draw people in to upsell.
So, I think the way certainly Gap looked at it is that, ‘If I can get folks in the store and give away $25 and get them in to buy a pair of jeans, then they’re also going to buy shirts and so on and so forth’; and on a gross margin basis, that clearly makes economics sense for them. I don’t know the specifics of it, but as a general, in terms of how their economic numbers worked out with that particular promotion, but as a general statement of why a retailer would engage in that promotion, that’s pretty clear.
JH: You’ve got tons of people in the store, and probably the third thing is the marketing behind it where they were the first person to do it, and maybe they could have spent a million or two million dollars on TV commercials saying, ‘Hey, excess inventory sale.’ But, they were on every social media blog and people talking about it and passing that around and it kind of gets into – it was really hot on Twitter and on Facebook. How are companies using those types of social media to help people and spread the word about deals?
DC: Well, I think there’s lots of different ways that retailers and companies are trying to really leverage these social media vehicles. Again, I would say that I do think it’s an area that’s still in progress; so to speak, because one of the things you have to recognize is that social media is truly social. So, people are not necessarily, you know, if you invite somebody to your home for dinner, to use the analogy, you don’t necessarily want to hear them talking about, ‘Do you want to buy this pair of jeans?’ You have to be careful how you insert yourself into conversations – the social conversations that people have. Having said that, certainly you’ve got a lot of different, you know, these are enormous vehicles for communicating things that are of interest to folks of like taste.
In the end, social media really ultimately is word of mouth and that has been around for a long time, and it’s just a way to kind of amplify word of mouth in a very, very dramatic fashion. So, you see some successes in this area. For example with Facebook, yet a microstore that does 1-800-Flowers that has had a fair amount of success where you don’t actually have to leave Facebook to buy flowers. But other retailers who have tried to set up microstores have had less success, and some people felt that’s because flowers lends itself to birthdays and anniversaries and things that are called out in Facebook on a social basis, and perhaps other kinds of products are involved.
JH: They’re going to know everything about it. They’re going to be trending, like, ‘Got in a fight with my girlfriend.’ Oh, a flower thing’s going to pop up, and the next thing the chocolates, and the candy ad is going to pop up, we’re doomed. [LAUGHTER]
Let’s try to start to wrap things up on both sides -looking on the company side and the user.
So, if you’re a company looking to sell a product, you know harnessing social media, social buying and online ecommerce trends, what’s the best way for a company to kind of take advantage of these new things?
DC: Well, I think again there’s lots of different ways that, for example, Facebook Connect is, in terms of likes and being able to really target people on a very specific basis with their likes as opposed to simply sending them a promotional email, I don’t know that companies have fully leveraged the ability to do that. And when I think about it, and I think about a company that I also sit on the board of, a company by the name of Open Sky, I think they have really, in some ways, cracked the code on that. Because, again, these are very social conversations you need to be careful how you interject yourself in them. Open Sky provides a supplier network for people who are passionate about things.
So for example, if you’re passionate about gardening, cooking, or surfing, or whatever it may be, you can go to a supplier marketplace and decide to choose certain products that you really like that you use personally, and then be able to sell them off an Open Sky platform. Be able to tell people in your social graph about those products, not because you’re trying to sort of be a pitchman, a P.T. Barnum sort of thing, but because you genuinely love your O’Neill surfboard that you used just the other day and have the ability now to say, ‘This is great, you ought to buy it, and you can buy it right here with this [link]’
JH: Wow. That must be great for affiliates. So, if you have a surfing blog or a gardening blog, and you’re talking about it, and you like, you said that surfboard. So, how does that work, is it kind of like a widget that will facilitate kind of an online buying process for that? And then you take a cut?
DC: So, if you’re a supplier, you have the ability to effectively go onto Open Sky on shopopensky.com. You can go onto Open Sky and really be able to effectively provide your product for a publisher, and again a publisher in this sense, somebody who’s passionate about, again, their passion, again, gardening, surfing, whatever it may be.
And, Open Sky essentially connects both the blogger in this case and the supplier, and provides the platform to make the purchase. And, the economics are shared among everybody. The supplier, obviously, gets, they’ve offered at a price and that price is the price. The publisher and Open Sky take a piece of the profit, as well; and, then the product is offered.
JH: That sounds good; I’m going to check it out, because we talk a lot about that on the blog about finding a niche and kind of capitalizing on that, and writing about your passion. And it sounds like, when you start getting that audience and people talking about whether it’s marketing like you said, or surfing or yoga, that you can honestly say this is the product I use and people always ask, ‘How do you make money off your blog, how do you do that?’ So, it sounds like a great way to do that.
DC: And it really is about authenticity. Traditionally, bloggers that are passionate about something have an audience and the only way they’ve been able to really monetize or make money from the audience is by advertising. Open Sky really provides a way to monetize through e-commerce; and again – authentically.
Because you actually use the product, because you like the product, because you endorse the product; nobody that’s really passionate about something that has an audience is going to risk their audience by being, again, a P.T. Barnum. They’re really going to offer that product or endorse that product because they’ve used it, because they like it and Open Sky simply gives that blogger the mechanism to offer it to somebody in a very sort of instant transactional way they can buy it right off that blog.
JH: Wow. It sounds like a great idea for a company or a publisher. So what about users? So the people in the next couple of weeks are going to buy something for Dad and Aunt Susie, or whatever; what are their best options for finding the best deal and getting the best presents online?
DC: Well, you know there are still lots of sites out there that offer lots of different discounts and coupons – FatWallet, Ebates; lots of different sites like that, that if you’re looking for something and you’re looking for a coupon or discount or rebate, you’ve got a place to go to get it. And certainly those sites are very present. But I think, you know, people are actually looking more so this year than in other holiday seasons for some social direction. I think people are looking for direction from their friends’ social graph on what is the thing to buy, what experiences people have had with given products and so forth, and I think that’s going to influence a lot of shopping decisions.
JH: That’s what I was going to say, like what do you see for the future trend for next year and beyond, and just from what we’ve been talking about it sounds like it’s going to be this online buying, but what’s in its infancy is the social influence of this online buying, and it’s Facebook keeps ramping up and Twitter that this is all going to kind of connect, would you agree?
DC: Absolutely. And again, I think we’re in the very early stages but people, the internet is clearly becoming a much more social vehicle, in general. And, the ways that people are going to sell things are going to be heavily influenced by that social conversation. And, I think the kind of many different aspects of that’s going to unfold are still unfolding, very much so. And, I think we’re going to start to see some how that unfolds this holiday season, but I think in many respects next holiday season will be, I would predict, at least, the burgeoning of social e-commerce, or social commerce, if you will.
JH: Well, awesome. So, a final question, what are you getting for Christmas, what’s on your list? [LAUGHTER]
DC: [LAUGHTER] A nice warm vacation to an island in the Caribbean, and I’ve already got that for myself, so…
JH: A Caribbean island, can’t find that online, right?
JH: Well, awesome. Thank you so much for coming in. Again, tell people where they can learn more about you and about the companies that you’re representing right now.
DC: Sure. So, I’m with Canaan Partners and canaan.com is certainly a place you can go to see the companies that we’ve invested in. But, I encourage people to go to some of the companies that I mentioned: Gemvara.com, Open Sky – those are great companies that I think from an e-commerce perspective people will be interested to learn more about.
JH: Awesome, I will have those links up on the Hopkinsonreport.com and I appreciate you coming in.
DC: Thank you, Jim. Appreciate it.
JH: This has been the Hopkinson Report podcast. I’d like to thank my special guest, Dan Ciporin of Canaan Partners. Make sure to check out Gemvara and shop Open Sky, and when you’re shopping, check out the Wired Store. If you’re in New York City, we have a pop-up shop or you can go online Wiredstore.net for all your cool holiday products.
And, as always, thanks for listening.